I am happy to engage brother Holt in discussing the divine scriptures.
I affirm: The Scriptures teach that one is saved when he is scripturally baptized.
By scripturally I mean, having the proper prerequisites. By when I mean, the point that he is raised up from the water.
By baptized I mean, immersed in water with the idea that God will remove his sins as he complies with His conditions.
My opponent, brother Jack Holt, has recently changed his position, from what was the same as I am affirming, to the belief that one is saved at the point of faith and that baptism does not have a part in initial salvation.
One of the problems with denominational teaching regarding when one is saved is that people cannot know for sure – they cannot point to a time or place that they were sure that it was at that point they became a Christian. People hear sermons by denominational preachers about Christ: who He is, what he did and about the promises He made to those who love and obey him. Such sermons prick their hearts. They want to become a Christian, but the preacher does not tell them what to do! They are merely urged to accept Jesus Christ into their hearts. They are usually encouraged to pray until they "pray through" and are thus saved, as evidenced by nothing more than the feeling they have. However, many who want to be saved, after hearing these denominational sermons and endeavoring to comply, unfortunately leave the meeting without being saved. Many even leave the meeting without acquiring the "feeling" of being saved. Remember, as pointed out in previous installments, forgiveness of sins by the blood of Christ is something that takes place in the MIND OF GOD, not our OWN minds. Nevertheless, when we are baptized we are making a "request to God for a clear conscience" (1 Pet. 3:21), which does involve our heart in various ways.
(GW) Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you. Baptism doesn't save by removing dirt from the body. Rather, baptism is a request to God for a clear conscience. It saves you through Jesus Christ, who came back from death to life.
People who reach the age of accountability have sins that must be pardoned before they can be free from sin. To be pardoned from a civil crime the criminal sometimes is required to do something. Also, the entire proceedings of the pardon are not merely in the mind of the criminal or in the mind of the Governor or President. There is visible phenomenon that points to the exact place and time when the pardon takes place.
Now, why would God do otherwise? Why would God require the act of "praying through" to receive pardon when there is no definite way to determine if or when it actually took place? My opponent's position is that salvation comes at the point of faith. My position is that salvation is by faith, but not faith only . It is by faith that one is baptized, which he does appealing to God for a clear conscience (1Pet. 3:21). It takes faith in God and His word to believe He will do what He promises when one meets the conditions for having his sins removed and adding him to the number of the saved.
The remainder of this installment will be to present various passages that serve to build the kind of faith in God that will result in the believer's asking "What shall I do?" (a biblical question you will see again), and not questioning the answer.
In this affirmative I will give some illustrations and scripture that deal with the point of pardon. Does forgiveness take place at the point of faith or baptism? The scriptures give a definite answer, which should leave the believer with no doubts about whether he was saved or when he was saved. My opponent will have an opportunity to respond to this installment. I will then respond to his rebuttal. He will have another opportunity to respond to my comments, then I his, but he will have the last say, as I did when he was in the affirmative. I plan to include the entire debate on my web site.
John 1:12 (ASV) But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
In the text above, John states that those who believe on His name, having received Him, God gave the right or "power" (KJV) TO BECOME children of God. My opponent's teaching is that persons who have received Jesus are at that point saved, but is his thinking in harmony with the text? The clear import of the passage is that there is something else to do to become a "child of God" besides believing. The texts that we have presented in this affirmative make it abundantly clear exactly what it is that one who believes in Jesus is to do to get into the family of God
.In Acts chapter two, men inspired of God preached Jesus to a large crowd of Jews. The record tells us "they were pricked in their heart." There was no question but that they believed and were sorrowful for their sins. Yet they asked, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Now, if they were saved by their faith and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, they would have FELT SAVED, if Jack's doctrine is true, and the apostles would not have needed to tell them anything. The apostle, nevertheless, did answer the question. That answer is the SAME answer that should be given to any individual in any generation, if the person has the same degree of knowledge. They were told: REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED…FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS. You cannot get "salvation at the point of faith from this text." Repentance and baptism were required. The promise for these people who would comply was "forgiveness of sins."
Saul was a devout Jew of much learning and of strong stature. For some unknown reason he was not able to receive (or at least had not received) the evidence that Jesus was the prophetic Savior. Saul looked upon Jesus as an impostor and his followers as a threat to Judaism. Thus, in his zeal to do God's will (or what he thought was God's will) he was the leader of those who were going about persecuting Christians, even to their death.
Now, God looked into the heart of this man and knew he was honest. He needed him to stop his persecution and to be instrumental in spreading His gospel to the Jews. Thus, Jesus approached Saul, in a supernatural way, when he was on his way to a city to persecute Christians. In addition to seeing the bright light and hearing the voice of the Lord, Saul was struck blind. This humbled Saul and convinced Him that he had been wrong about Jesus. The text reveals Saul's response: "And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do" (Acts 9:6)?
Once again we have an example of conversion where one who believes asks what he must do, but the denominational teaching of "salvation at the point of faith" is absent from the text. Not only is that doctrine absent from the text, but we shall see that it is not in harmony with the text.
Saul's Question and Jesus' Answer:
"And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do."
There can be no doubt about the meaning of either the question or the answer:
1) Paul wanted to get right with God; and
2) Jesus directed him to a place where he would meet one of his servants who would further instruct him (with "words") that would answer his question.
Let us look at the command again. Clearly, Saul was told that there was something he MUST DO. The idea of "praying through" or being saved at the point of faith is not found in this text. There is more revealed regarding this example of conversion, so let us look at that additional information.
In verse 10 and 11 we read about a man by the name of Ananias. This man was instructed by God to tell Saul what he needed to do. Later, as recorded in chapter 22, Saul (Paul) gives an account of his conversion. In verse 10 he states that he asked "what shall I do, Lord?" Then he tells us (in verse 16) that he was told by Ananias "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
First, there is no evidence whatsoever that Paul was saved by the faith he had when Jesus met him on the road to Damascus. (In fact, he prayed for three days, but was not saved.)
Second, the text teaches us that God uses PEOPLE to preach to people.
Third, he was told he must do something.
Fourth, he was told to call on the name of the Lord by being baptized to "wash away thy sins."
Fifth, if Saul was saved at the point of faith, or through prayer, he would not have had sins and would not have been given this command.
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16).
In giving the great commission to the disciples, immediately before his death, Jesus told them to preach the gospel and that those who believe and are baptized would be saved.
My opponent would have you to believe that what Jesus said was that those who believe are already saved at that point and then should be baptized as a sign to the world that they are saved. He has already tried to teach that baptism cannot be the point of salvation because it is a work (which he did prove). However, I showed how he misused those passages. He must now explain the affirmative arguments that I make so the reader can see, as he thinks he sees, how I have misused these passages – that they do not teach what seems apparent.
The word and is a conjunction that joins the word believeth and baptized together, making them of equal importance. Below is an illustration of how the word is used, which is applicable to the text:
Little Johnnie's father tells him, "Son, you feed the dogs and mow the yard and then we will go fishing." After feeding the dogs the son approaches his father with his fishing tackle and says, "Let's go." The father knows he has not had time to have mowed the yard so he says, "We will go fishing after you do what I told you." The son then goes and mows the yard, in obedience to his father's conditions for what he had promised in his original statement. The father inspects the job and the proceeds to get ready to go fishing with his son.
Before the "lesson" the son did not know what "and" meant. He did not fully understand that the word "and" required that he obey the TWO things that were joined by "and" before he could receive the promise.
Now, let us make the application. When Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved," it is to be understood that BOTH believing and being baptized come BEFORE salvation. This is just as true as the fact that "feeding the dogs" and "mowing the yard" came before the fishing trip.
One thing we can all agree upon is that it is essential that we contact the blood of Christ to be saved. Therefore, if we can just determine at what point one contacts His blood we will then have determined exactly at what point one is saved.
We shall look carefully at a few passages that shed light on the question, "when do we contact the blood?"
Paul's Teaching to the Romans
6:3, 4 - Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Now, Paul is talking to Christians – bringing to their remembrance how they were saved. He says, we "were baptized into his death." He continues to explain that "we were buried with him by baptism into death." It was in His death that Jesus shed His blood. Thus, it is His death, which we are baptized into, that we contact his blood. The next part of the passage clearly indicates that it is from the watery grave that we rise up as a "new creature" to "walk in newness of life." Thus, Paul teaches that we contact the saving blood of Christ when we are baptized.
God, having foresight to see the future, knew many would deny that baptism is the point of salvation; therefore He provided more than enough evidence to prove it. Even in the text above there is more. Let us see what else is said in the same context:
Romans 6:17 18 - But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Paul says he is thankful that these Roman brethren are no longer servants of sin. He states that the reason they are not is because they "have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered" to them. Then Paul tells us that the Romans were made "free from sin" at the point they OBEYED, and that they were then "servants of righteousness."
What is Paul saying? What he apparently said can't be true, my opponent must tell us, because "baptism is a work" and Paul says salvation is not of works. Well, we have, in a previous installment, explained that to harmonize with what Paul teaches here. For my opponent to bring it up again, in his effort to show that what the apostle teaches is not the way it appears, will be seen as an effort to cloud the issue and a denial of what Paul said. This passage proves that salvation is at the point of baptism. My opponent must either give an exegesis of the passage (and the others) that is reasonable and which will harmonize with his doctrine, or suffer the humiliation of being seen as teaching error on a very important matter.
Paul's Teaching on Baptism to the Church at Colosse.
Col 2:12, 13 - Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
There is not a lot to add here that will help prove my proposition that was not noted in my comments on the Roman text. This is just to confirm that Paul was consistent in his teaching regarding when forgiveness took place. I do want to note that Paul added that it was "through the faith of the operation of God" that they received the forgiveness of sins. This is to say that forgiveness was received because of each individual's faith in God that as He raised up Jesus he would raise him/her up to be "forgiven" of "all trespasses" and would then be consider him/her to be one of His children.
Paul's Teaching on Baptism to the Church at Galatia.
Gal. 3:26, 27 – "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
Paul is often known to "bring to remembrance" important things that had been taught to those whom he now seeks to build up with his teaching. First, he states that they are "children of God by faith in Christ." Second, Paul explains that those who had been "baptized," which he said was "into Christ," have "put on Christ."
Observations:
1) There is nothing in the text above that even hints that one is saved at the point of faith. The text teaches that one is saved by faith, but not at the "point" of faith.
2) The text teaches how one gets INTO Christ or is to "put on Christ." When one is baptized because of his faith that God will save him as promised, God puts him "into Christ."
Paul's Teaching on Baptism to the Church at Corinth.
1 Cor. 12:13 - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
The text above states that we are "all baptized into one body." So, if someone asks, "How do we get into Christ?" you should refer him or her to this text because it gives the answer. Now let us see how this proves my proposition:
In Col 1:24 we find that the church and the body are the same: "…For his body's sake, which is the church." If we go back to Acts 2 we see that the church is the saved. "And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved" (verse 47). Thus, Paul teaches the Corinthians (and us) that we are baptized to be saved, which will result in our being added to His church.
Jesus said, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." When questioned about this puzzling statement He replied, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
The "kingdom of God" represents the place, or state, where the saved will go or be. We have seen in Romans 6 and Colossians 2 that one is born again when he is baptized. Therefore, it cannot be denied that the passage in the text is talking about baptism. Since the birth is said to be "of water" we must conclude that Jesus told this man that baptism was essential to become a child of God whereby he would see the kingdom of God.
Question:
Brother Holt, please explain, in as much detail as possible, exactly how one becomes a Christian; and not only how HE can know when it happened but also what evidence there is that OTHERS can look at to see when the Lord added him to the number of the saved.
Some groups claim that one simply prays for salvation ("prays through") until God decides to save him. Do you hold this position? If so, please explain how it can be true in light of the following statement: "…God is no respecter of persons" (Acts 10:34). Is not God a respecter of persons IF he responds to some, in answer to their prayer, who want to be saved, and speaks to them or enlightens them in some supernatural way, while others who want to be saved are made to wait and wait on Him to extend his mercy?
Dear reader, you will not find the doctrine referred to above in the scriptures, but we do find that Jesus said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."
Brother Holt will now have the opportunity to respond and try to show that what has been presented in this affirmative is not in harmony with the truth.